tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post3701360315583903603..comments2024-03-11T05:03:14.020-07:00Comments on Ernie's Place: Hugh Thompson Jr.Ernie Branscombhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06391160783604462511noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-32754684901343838572010-09-06T06:59:58.397-07:002010-09-06T06:59:58.397-07:00Spy, Covelo still lack law. That's what makes ...Spy, Covelo still lack law. That's what makes it interesting to visit.<br /><br />OregonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-43424269145634608582010-09-06T00:04:31.153-07:002010-09-06T00:04:31.153-07:00on july 30, 2005, i took a trip to covelo and stop...on july 30, 2005, i took a trip to covelo and stopped at a cemetery on my way out of town. the first tombstone i saw as i got out of my car was that of samuel and charlotte simmerely and their oldest son joe. sam simmerly had come from the cumberland gap area of pennsylvania and met his wife charlotte chandon recently from bravaria in st louis on their way to marysville in 1848. they moved to round valley in 1870 after your time period. my cahto relatives, the klaubers were killed in 1872. joe died in the early 1890s and then his younger brothers frederick and john, my ancestor, moved to spyrock. as cattle ranchers and grocery store owners in marysville, the simmerlys were respected members of the community. my cahto grandmother said she was part indian to my cousins when she babysat them at 94years of age but no other stories about indians were passed down on either side of that side of my family. however, while standing near that tombstone and walking through that cememtery in covelo something happened to me. i felt strangly happy and it really felt like people were gathering around me.<br />since then i have been obsessed with finding out who these people were and what happened back then. i am on this blog because of that day. in other words, my ancestors want people like you to know the truth about what happened back then. when you call me a redneck, which might seem pretty funny to some on this blog, it just confirms that i'm channeling my ancestors pretty good these days.<br />They just get pissed when people don't think there were good white people in the old days. You are right about the bad ones. They had to survive them too. They weren't only killing indians, they were killing homesteaders, foreigners like germans and jews as well. you better be able to know how to drink whiskey too. there was no law in covelo in those days except the law of the buckaroos who all worked for people like hastings and white.<br />thanks for the apology but i wasn't really speaking to anyone directly or personally. my ancestors aren't going to haunt you. at least i don't think so. they just want their story told in a more truthful and objective fashion.spyrockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03685726716755909658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-75562770671482287022010-09-05T23:05:37.282-07:002010-09-05T23:05:37.282-07:00hey Oregon, it's easy to see that the point of...hey Oregon, it's easy to see that the point of your post is of course not to compare shooting squirrels to indians, but rather that the judgment made about the act in each instance is often based on a similar disregarding of context and lack of empathy.\https://www.blogger.com/profile/01423262259410754388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-13834080170045812882010-09-05T19:08:09.179-07:002010-09-05T19:08:09.179-07:00THANKS Ernie for editing my comments into the righ...THANKS Ernie for editing my comments into the right order. <br />The depositions mentioned above were taken in the late winter of 1860.olmanrivernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-65434286867735906012010-09-05T18:51:36.553-07:002010-09-05T18:51:36.553-07:00William Frazier had a storied life, and a number o...William Frazier had a storied life, and a number of his Indian descendants live in Round and Long Valley. <br />One last peek at how it was back then from that deposition: "...in 1857, the different tribes of Indians in that vicinity had a meeting, and sent for me to be present; I think there were two thousand present; I was told by the friendly Indians that the Yucas encouraged the attempt to kill me; they surrounded me, and one Indian drew his bow and arrow and held it on me, but I brought my pistol to bear on him before he could shoot, and he cooled down; I then rode off; the only cause they assigned for it was, that I made those around mind me, and sometimes whipped them, and that they did not like me"...olmanrivernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-24325411619139539722010-09-05T18:45:10.220-07:002010-09-05T18:45:10.220-07:00An' Oregon, at least you were brave enough to ...An' Oregon, at least you were brave enough to comment. I ran inside and peeked through the curtains when the tall "comma slinger" showed up at Ernie's It's Ok/It's not Ok Corral. <br />Maybe we should be forming a c(h)orral group to sing our history. I can sing base, er, bass. Who will hit the high notes?<br /><br />Hey four comments in a row on a bullshistory sight and I get "fecis" as my verification. Aint that somethin'.olmanrivernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-55415867592954734602010-09-05T18:43:11.866-07:002010-09-05T18:43:11.866-07:00Part 2
Long Valley ranchers gave a few testimonie...Part 2<br /><br />Long Valley ranchers gave a few testimonies in Covelo as well, William Frazier's gives us the best window into the times. After discussing GH Woodman's alleged stock losses, and a few raids made on rancherias to avenge livestock losses, testifies that<br />"... there has been no white men killed in Long Valley, that I know of, and no buildings burnt; I think there is a necessity for an armed force in that valley, for the protection of the lives and property of the citizens at present: I do not believe that the citizens have applied to the Federal troops for protection; the white population in that valley consist of about one hundred and twenty-five.<br />I know of no attack being made by the Indians, either upon a white person or a residence; I have often traveled through the region inhabited by those Indians, alone, without being molested by them; I know of no children being taken away from these Indians to be sent away; among these hostile tribes which we attacked, we found no children taken from them by some white men, and for the purpose of pecuniary profit.<br />Before my company was organized, there had been a good many Indians killed in the valley by the citizens and Captain Jarboe’s company."Olmanrivernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-69761875359405105922010-09-05T18:31:25.815-07:002010-09-05T18:31:25.815-07:00Suzy I do not know what became of Scott, though I ...Suzy I do not know what became of Scott, though I am fairly certain that Scott's valley was named after him.<br /><br />The under oath depositions given to the state legislature's investigative Mendocino Indian War committee in Covelo reveal that many locals did not go along with the excessive killing of Indians. A number of ranchers testified that they had had no trouble with Indians or livestock losses. Most of the depositions are from Round Valley. <a href="http://www.killingforland.com/" rel="nofollow">Killing for Land</a>, by Frank Baumgardner is THE book on Round Valley history, and I believe that you can Google reader it, still.<br /><br />part 1olmanrivernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-28507696509912802212010-09-05T11:53:40.498-07:002010-09-05T11:53:40.498-07:00Suzy, that wasn't any record, there were sever...Suzy, that wasn't any record, there were several folks did that on a regular basis around that part of the country. I wish I hadn't said anything about it though. I knew it as soon as I hit the send button.<br /><br />OregonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-79409149825649523482010-09-04T23:53:59.925-07:002010-09-04T23:53:59.925-07:00Good story OMR. I wonder about his history and fa...Good story OMR. I wonder about his history and fate. And about the internal struggle he must have had with his choice. <br /><br />Oregon, over 100 a day --wow! that sounds like some kinda record or something.<br /><br />J2bad, chill out dude, you can say what ever you want and think whatever you wish.\https://www.blogger.com/profile/01423262259410754388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-78499300110141207062010-09-04T23:02:21.611-07:002010-09-04T23:02:21.611-07:00Oregon,They are called "Digger Squirrels"...Oregon,They are called "Digger Squirrels" You must be a Newcomer???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-78153622448310792992010-09-04T20:31:36.283-07:002010-09-04T20:31:36.283-07:00I better add here, I am not making comparisons bet...<i>I better add here, I am not making comparisons between varmints, Indians or Vietnamese.</i><br /><br />I could be reading that wrong, but I'm pretty sure you are comparing shooting Indians (and people complaining) to shooting varmints (and people complaining). Pretty directly. In both comments.J2Badhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05735232142556182232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-35043853858923058922010-09-04T20:19:47.296-07:002010-09-04T20:19:47.296-07:00As I understand it, the person who killed indians ...<i>As I understand it, the person who killed indians was not a sinner in that he was not violating his culture's or societies' real values.</i><br /><br />Indiscriminately killing people was widely understood to be bad, even all those years ago.<br /><br />If you're saying that no one mentioned the fact that Indians were human, indigenous to the land, and being exterminated, you're just factually wrong. It was all over the literature of the period, in plays and popular novels and advertisements. There were political debates on the subject, Indian chiefs in the halls of Congress, etc., etc., etc. Racism certainly was widespread, as the nation-wide policy of Indian "removal" documents. But just as with slavery, there were plenty of people on the other side of those issues who loudly protested.<br /><br /><br />But even if what you say were true, I still disagree with that sort of weak-kneed cultural relativism. By that standard, I can't say the Bataan Death March was wrong, because the Japanese really did think us Americans were subhuman. I can't say anything to those people who defend Nazis, because the German people really did think the Jews were scum. And Iranians stoning women to death for adultery right now is okay, and female circumcision in Africa right now is okay, etc., etc. Screw that.J2Badhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05735232142556182232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-26696472797707229532010-09-04T11:11:09.444-07:002010-09-04T11:11:09.444-07:00I better add here, I am not making comparisons bet...I better add here, I am not making comparisons between varmints, Indians or Vietnamese.<br />There are people even now days that can't grasp someone killing any animals much less humans.<br />Like Suzy sez, "not violating their culture."<br /><br /><br />OregonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-80594836006531025802010-09-04T11:02:56.514-07:002010-09-04T11:02:56.514-07:00I have to agree with Suzy.
I used to kill over a h...I have to agree with Suzy.<br />I used to kill over a hundred ground squirrels a day and made the ranchers happy because they ruined so much grain from the grazing fields. I'm sure at the time that would have shocked or at least gone against some folks values or feelings. Now days I pass up the shooting of varmints but still don't see any wrong in it.<br /><br />OregonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-50238585636580324822010-09-04T10:51:10.236-07:002010-09-04T10:51:10.236-07:00William Scott left Jarboe's Eel River Rangers...William Scott left Jarboe's Eel River Rangers because he didn't like what was happening. He said the orders were to shoot them all.olmanrivernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-81628879775660557752010-09-04T10:35:18.429-07:002010-09-04T10:35:18.429-07:00I don't believe that the Gandhi bumper-sticker...I don't believe that the Gandhi bumper-sticker quote, "hate the sin not the sinner" applies in this case. The "indian killers" being judged as sinners and their deeds being judged as sin is not in accordance with reality. As I understand it, the person who killed indians was not a sinner in that he was not violating his culture's or societies' <i>real</i> values. His deeds were not sins except when looked at through the morality of another society's point of view. The sin that I see in this is the judgments of self righteous politically and morally correct Monday morning quarterbacks. <br /><br />Sometimes one finds oneself in a situation where the cultural and social values of the time and place contradict one's own internal values (depending on who you are). Then actions like Thompson's might arise. Maybe Ernie or someone will post something of that nature that happened in the old west.\https://www.blogger.com/profile/01423262259410754388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-23719722863817432572010-09-03T20:22:56.857-07:002010-09-03T20:22:56.857-07:00Even if I do not agree with all that you just said...Even if I do not agree with all that you just said, I do appreciate it as gentle and well-crafted response, one that pours some oil on my honest opinion, but rude comment, for which I owe, and give, Spyrock, an apology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-69149789217233267322010-09-03T12:34:05.829-07:002010-09-03T12:34:05.829-07:00Anon
I want to say this in the nicest possible way...Anon<br />I want to say this in the nicest possible way, because I'm going to use you as an example of what Spyrock is talking about.<br /><br />There are many instances of the old families being blamed for the flagrant extermination of the Indian people. The most recent being by the Laytonville English teacher that referred to us as "the old Indian killer families" and made mention that the early local families killed "Bucks – so-called – especially were prized as targets”. The North coast journal did a story about the founders of Arcata. The journal referred the founders as: <br />The Sonoma Gang<br />“Remembering the genocidal scum who built Arcata.” By Jerry Rohde.<br /><br />The article in itself was not as bad as the comments that it prompted, some of which demanded the names of the people that killed the Indian people. The comments went on to demand the removal of the names of places that were named after the pioneers. <br /><br />I’ve seen few assessments as to WHY the early settlers had the hate for the Indians that they did. Most remembered the gauntlet of Indian attacks while coming to California. Some were just plain evil, some just went along, and most were just trying to survive after they got here. As I pointed out, there were some great heroes that tried to protect the Indian people. Some of the “protectors” were brutally attacked by Indians. I’ve pointed these stories out on this blog. I’ve even investigated the “why” they might have had their bitterness by comparing the “overland” pioneers to the much more peaceful “shipboard” pioneers that came by boat. I pointed out that many of my family participated in the killing of Indians, but many, many more protected them against pretty strong retaliation.<br /><br />When I say that I have more experience in the history of the Eel River canyon, because I was raised here and heard all of the stories of the early days, I am accused of being arrogant. I didn’t feel that way at all. I’ve heard more stories than I can ever remember. I started hearing stories back in the fifties when the old Indian fighters were still thought of by some as heroes. I can’t speak for Spyrock, but what he says rings true to me. He is both Indian and white and has ancestors killed on both sides. I can’t help but think that he has thought about, and wondered about his history, and the history of the Eel Canyon, and I would never write-of his comments as “redneck defensiveness and posturing”. I would guess that he has a certain amount of frustration in the fact that people don’t really try to figure out what history is all about, but they “know” it wasn’t fair to kill Indians.<br /><br />I would invite you to keep your mind open and look for what motivated people in history, and you will find some very interesting characters. Also, I, and Spyrock know that if you would research your family history you would find some very evil people, and you would learn some humility.Ernie Branscombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06391160783604462511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-33202708814753287832010-09-03T09:29:52.294-07:002010-09-03T09:29:52.294-07:00"so before all of you self proclaimed righteo..."so before all of you self proclaimed righteous people who know nothing about their own family history start throwing stones, let me hip you to the fact that you don't know who you are dealing with. you wouldn't have lasted a new york minute back in the old west. even the best of us didn't sit kindly with someone showing a lack of respect. the fact that we are now speaks louder than words. ernie is the most gracious host i have ever seen. good luck looking for the truth somewhere else."<br /><br />Ernie is great, I am six foot four and weigh well over 200 lbs and would have done just fine back then. <br />I don't see people throwing stones here, but I do see a lot of redneck defensiveness and posturing. Not one word has been uttered attacking anybody that you or Ernie have met in your lifetime. People are discussing the activities of the earliest settlers which you have perceived as an attack on your family, or Ernie's family. Maybe sober, you can see the illogic of your defensive words. No one is attacking your family.<br />Why do you take criticism so poorly and sound like one of the most self-righteous blowhards who posts here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-14303068233393544552010-09-02T19:12:53.910-07:002010-09-02T19:12:53.910-07:00you should really read some joaquin miller because...you should really read some joaquin miller because he was probably the first european writer in california to see the indians side. the fact that he was largely ignored in america but loved in europe and england illustrates the fact that americans simply haven't come to terms with this issue even to the present day. most of of you don't even know who this man is. from my read of california history, there were certain men who had very good reasons to hate indians who did the things like massacres and poisoning beef that killed the people. but they were the few. judge hastings had a buckaroo who was a giant of a man who hated indians and they had a lot to do with killing all the indians along the eel river. of course, the hasting school of law still pumps out lawyers in san francisco. please read about the modocs and you will see that it was usually one hateful man who led others against them. and because of that treachery, the modocs ambushed a minister and a general of the united states army. we are not talking about a bunch of soldiers getting drunk the night before their raid on sand creek. we are talking about usually one hateful individual who would organize a vigilantee mob to go kill indians. maybe they lost their stallion that they paid $5000 for. whatever the excuse, are you chicken or what? lets go kill some indians. who would do the same thing today? not much has changed.<br />ernie defends his ancestors because to him, they are the best people he has ever met in his life. that is the same experience i had with my ancestors from mendocino county. they were the most beautiful people i have ever met. they weren't pc by today's standards, but you can't touch this anymore..<br />so before all of you self proclaimed righteous people who know nothing about their own family history start throwing stones, let me hip you to the fact that you don't know who you are dealing with. you wouldn't have lasted a new york minute back in the old west. even the best of us didn't sit kindly with someone showing a lack of respect. the fact that we are now speaks louder than words. ernie is the most gracious host i have ever seen. good luck looking for the truth somewhere else.spyrockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03685726716755909658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-8791900402840453112010-09-01T23:55:14.791-07:002010-09-01T23:55:14.791-07:00I agree that there's bad all around, and I agr...I agree that there's bad all around, and I agree that the noble savage stereotype was just a dumb stereotype. I don't disagree that it's nice to know something about the Indians who used to live here, but I don't really see why their (possibly-aggressive) past should have any bearing on my judgement about Euro-American colonial expansion. The one doesn't excuse the other, the scales are absurdly different, and there's no causal connection. I mean, it's not like Americans spread across the whole nation because the Iroquois didn't like the Algonquin (or whatever). <br /><br />I dunno about evil, though. The Israelis kill children, the Palestinian kill children - both think they're justified in what they do because both think the other is evil.J2Badhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05735232142556182232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-83639747308804098952010-09-01T21:21:05.273-07:002010-09-01T21:21:05.273-07:00Here is an Amelia Susman quote:
'However, the ...Here is an Amelia Susman quote:<br />'However, the Indians had close relations with more respectable citizens as well. The "Indian fighters", were, in their dealings with other white men and in their families, often the kindest and best of men. Nordhoff says, in explanation, not defense of their deeds, that an old Indian fighter "sits down after dinner over a pipe and relates to you with quite horrifying coolness every detail of the death which his rifle and sure eye dealt to an Indian; the tragedy had not even the dignity of an event in his life ... he shot Indians as he ate his dinner, plainly as a matter of course; nor was he a brute but a kindly, honest good fellow, not in the least blood-thirsty" <br />(Nordhoff 1877, pg 185). And many of the most respectable settlers in Mendocino couniy have testified ...that they kill Indians found in what they consider hostile districts, whenever they lose cattle or horses,nor do they attempt to conceal or deny this fact". (California Legislature, <br />Appendix to the Journal, Document 4, l860).' <br />Amelia Susman, The Round Valley Indians of California 1976 (she was there in 1937), pg 27.<br />Nordoff, Charles, Northern California, Oregon and the Sandwich Islands, Harper 1877 NYolmanrivernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-86388351690754917652010-09-01T21:04:37.778-07:002010-09-01T21:04:37.778-07:00J2bad and Kym.
Thank-you for such thought filled a...J2bad and Kym.<br />Thank-you for such thought filled answers. That was my intent in the first place. Psychoanalyzing me could take forever.<br /><br />The subject of this post is that we know that there are evil people in the world. My guest is that it is about ten percent. Eighty-nine percent will do nothing, and rarely someone will take a stand. The more heinous the act the more likely that good people will come forward. In the last post, the two Captains at Sand Point had their troupes stand down. Hugh Thompson was actually ready to shoot at his own soldiers. So there are also good people. J2bad and Kym are probably in that group. The thing that amazes me is that there are so MANY people that are willing to do nothing.<br /><br />The other thing that I feel is important to point out is that land has since the beginning of time been taken through conquest. I know of no land in the whole world that has never been taken by any other method than conquest. Only very recently has the concept of purchasing land been utilized. In example: The Louisiana Purchase, Alaska, etc. So, the idea of just taking land was not a new idea. The taking of territory was used by the Indian people before we came here. If you will study the language of the Indian people you will know that the north coast Indians are from all over the country. <br /><br />I’m very sure that the Indians that were already here were killed and pushed aside by the interloper Indians. There is history of many battles between opposing tribes. The Yuki hated the Wailaki. They would cut their heads off and kick them around for sport. So gruesome death scenes were not unique to the white man.<br /><br />Also, once the white man was in California what were they supposed to do? Just let themselves be killed? Because the Indians would have, if they could have. <br />The story of Eliza Bowman should be used as an example of what Evil Indians are capable of. As some know she was the recipient of an unprovoked Indian attack upon her and her children.<br /><br />What would like people to hear from me is not that I’m making excuses for the early whites. I know that some were evil, and that most just tried to survive, and some tried to protect the Indians. I don’t think that it is necessary to draw on the gory details, although I strongly feel that the truth should be known. But, I also feel that the truth should be known about the Indians. They weren’t all just simple noble savages. Some of them had a very evil side also.Ernie Branscombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06391160783604462511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-56201811295564219912010-09-01T19:59:47.681-07:002010-09-01T19:59:47.681-07:00I think J2bad is right. We have to make judgments...I think J2bad is right. We have to make judgments about moral issues As he said, "The knowledge that people are fallible shouldn't be a defense for refusing to exercise any moral judgement." In fact, The knowledge that we are fallible shouldn't keep us from pointing out problems in others, but it should remind us that people who make errors, even those who do evil are not worthless. They may have other qualities that are good valuable.<br /><br />Ghandi said, "Hate the sin, not the sinner." <br /><br />Can we know that stealing land from Native Americans was wrong and be aware that we might have done it ourselves? Yes.<br /><br />Can we despise the slaughtering of innocents and yet admire the strength and courage of our ancestors? Yes.<br /><br />Why must it be despise or admire?<br /><br />Can weAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com