tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post269457141166468414..comments2024-03-11T05:03:14.020-07:00Comments on Ernie's Place: Most overland 1850s era California settlers came past the Mormons. Revised, with addendum.Ernie Branscombhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06391160783604462511noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-78415310392004059322010-06-21T23:00:20.996-07:002010-06-21T23:00:20.996-07:00what i meant by modern city folks or country folks...what i meant by modern city folks or country folks for that matter is their lack of respect for others would have got them killed in the old days. there was no courtroom, no judge, no lawyer. justice was right there on everyones hip. so people were more likely to tip their hat, show some respect and be on their way in the old days no matter who the other person was.spyrockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03685726716755909658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-6028115550110449012010-06-21T09:20:13.337-07:002010-06-21T09:20:13.337-07:00Thanks spyrock for that recommendation on the Life...Thanks spyrock for that recommendation on the Life Amongst the Modoc you gave me...some have suggested that modern city folk wouldn't make it too long in the old days because we aren't as tough and ornery as the people of that day on the frontier. <br />Joaquim Miller was an effeminate long blonde haired young man in the first part of his book. Interestingly, he seemed to have aroused more protective instincts, than predatory impulses, amongst his hard-drinkin', hard-livin' contemporaries. <br />Eventually he toughens up, but this book starts out sort of like a version of James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man... in the Wild West.<br /><br />I need to reread it after reading the Indian History of the Modoc Wars, since they are both accounts of the same time in history.<br /><br />What I love about the latter book is that it shows the full spectrum of attitudes towards the Indians, including the minority who were trying to "save" them, or at least, not leave them to the genocidal wolves amongst the whites. <br /><br />Yesterday at a yard sale I spoke with a Kiowa man who really knew his tribes history...fascinating. One of the stories he told concerned the war chief saving the life of a white boy who was the last survivor of an attack on a wagon train. The chief, having a few daughters, wanted a son. The son grew up to be a fierce war chief of his tribe, wearing the red sash taken from Mexican soldiers as his signature cape. <br /><br />I have read numerous accounts of whites passing through Indian held areas and many made it through fine, many had trouble. The forethinking wagon train master in your storyline showed how the behavior of the Indians sometimes depended on how the previous immigrants passing through treated the Indians. He was wise to perceive that his actions could make it worse for those who followed. <br /><br />Strychnine for prairie dogs, that one makes sense.olmanrivernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-37362960154300482222010-06-20T22:58:26.280-07:002010-06-20T22:58:26.280-07:00they used it as rat poison and it was also used on...they used it as rat poison and it was also used on gophers, prairie dogs, moles, and coyotes. the cia used it in the acid they gave to the hippies back in the 60's. the germans gave it to the jews during world war 2. it causes a very painful and violent death. but the painful truth is that a lot of indians were killed by poison meat. so give that wagon master credit because he didn't let that happen. there were a lot of men like wright who were full of hate back in those days and their descendents still live up in your area and some live down here by me. what surprizes me is that the dude can even read or spell. someone who acted that disrespectful in the pioneer days wouldn't have lasted a new york minute in the last of the west.<br />i read that modoc book four years ago and a lot of other versions. i'm sure there's a chapter somewhere in one of those books saying that they raided as far south as clear lake.spyrockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03685726716755909658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-1087604276490139662010-06-20T11:10:14.398-07:002010-06-20T11:10:14.398-07:00I find this stuff fascinating, but I don't hav...I find this stuff fascinating, but I don't have much to contribute. <br />I do know that there were a few participants of the Mountain Meadow massacre to settle in Normendo/Sohum. <br />Not sure if Ernie mentioned it, but those Mormons who slaughtered the whites were disguised as Indians to place the blame on them. This must be one of the examples that Hollywood used to base their whites in Indian garb movie plotlines.<br /><br />What is clear is that fast switching alliances, betrayals, and treachery were common on the frontier. <br /><br />I just finished reading an Indian History of the Modoc war by Jeff Riddle, whose parents served as interpreters between the whites and Indians. It is a great read by one who was there. He shows that the same Modocs who taunted and shamed Captain Jack to provoke him to attack General Canby, were the first to switch sides and take gov't money to bring in the Indians who had dispersed after the last big battle in the lava beds.<br /><br />Very few people know of the Ben Wright massacre where Modocs and other Indians were lured to a peaceful gathering and killed en masse, that preceded the Modoc war by about twenty years. Wright boasted of sending a thousand Indians to their graves.<br /><br />In this same early 1850's period the whites lured a large body of Indians to a meeting near Ft. Jones and poisoned the beef killing at least 500.<br /><br />When I read earlier of Spyrock's ancestors journey across the plains where the riled whites contemplated strychnining the Indians food...it made me wonder why they would have strychnine on the wagon train. Can anyone think of what use it would have?olmanrivernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-31196921161177962422010-06-20T08:43:14.723-07:002010-06-20T08:43:14.723-07:00I, too, have a Mormon family history although it h...I, too, have a Mormon family history although it has been watered down some during the last three generations of my immediate family. I have extended family still deeply entrenched. Keep going, Ernie. I have a feeling OMaR knows quite a lot about this, too. The LDS history is some of the most fascinating to me.Robin Shelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15282504761189889311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-58036499283212942512010-06-18T22:51:30.255-07:002010-06-18T22:51:30.255-07:00In 1853, John and Suzanna Middleton of Kentucky, t...In 1853, John and Suzanna Middleton of Kentucky, traveled westward with the wagon train led by an experienced Indian guide, to Salt Lake City, Utah. They wintered in Salt Lake, where their 2nd daughter, Mary was born in the spring. Mary was the 1st non-Morman white child born in the city of Salt Lake, which was founded 6 years prior by Brigham Young. (Family records)<br /><br />CousinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-20350960211549616382010-06-18T20:00:51.202-07:002010-06-18T20:00:51.202-07:00The remaining parts of what are today the states o...<i>The remaining parts of what are today the states of Arizona and New Mexico were later peacefully ceded under the 1853 Gadsden Purchase, in which the U.S. paid an additional US$10 million (equivalent to $260 million today).</i><br /><br />You can call it peaceful, and you're right that the territory was ceded for money, but Santa Anna was feeling the pressure from Californian filibusters - primarily William Walker - who kept threatening to take all of Sonora and Baja California by force. He needed the cash and suspected that he wouldn't be able to hold the territory much longer, but he didn't exactly want to give it up.J2Badhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05735232142556182232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-26928734812595479662010-06-17T21:53:12.962-07:002010-06-17T21:53:12.962-07:00Jon,
It was not Fremont that was taken as a willi...Jon, <br />It was not Fremont that was taken as a willing prisoner, but Vallejo.<br /><br />From Wikipedia: "The same day, the rebels captured the Commandant of Northern California, General Mariano Guadalupe Vallejo, who openly endorsed the inevitability of the annexation of California by the United States. Vallejo was sent to Sutter's Fort, where he was kept a prisoner until August 1, 1846.[1] The Republic's first and only president was William B. Ide[2], whose rule lasted twenty-five days. On June 23, 1846, Frémont arrived with sixty soldiers and took command in the name of the United States. The Bear Flag was replaced by the Stars and Stripes. The "republic" vanished and Ide enlisted in the U.S. forces as a private. The Mexican governor sent 55 men to attempt to crush the rebellion, but General José Castro's forces were defeated at the Battle of Olompali.<br /><br />Unknown to Frémont and the Bear Flag supporters, war had already been formally declared on May 13, 1846, but the news did not reach California until early July, when the frigate USS Savannah and the two sloops, USS Cyane and USS Levant, of the United States Navy captured Monterey, California."Ernie Branscombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06391160783604462511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-89011342982213729682010-06-17T20:56:31.151-07:002010-06-17T20:56:31.151-07:00your Blog is getting too complicated for me again....your Blog is getting too complicated for me again. Need to talk about Leo Etter sometime.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-87032044051192892772010-06-17T18:19:33.374-07:002010-06-17T18:19:33.374-07:00Jon, please don't apologize, but please contin...Jon, please don't apologize, but please continue with you Alta California and Mormon comments. They fit right in with this post and with where I'm heading with the next few posts. You’ve got my mind whirling when you mentioned Fremont. I think that he was taken as a willing prisoner of the "Bear Flag Republic" and the Kelseys, and they had to sacrifice California to the republic. (Like I think that you said) I have some history on that, but I’m not near it right now. I’ll look it up tonight. Meanwhile, if anybody else knows how California became a state, chime in.Ernie Branscombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06391160783604462511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-16026188593983868142010-06-17T17:34:18.413-07:002010-06-17T17:34:18.413-07:00Back when we getting ready to become a State, them...Back when we getting ready to become a State, them folks back in the East made it a point that California would not have a say in how the Territory ceded to the United States of America by California would be divided and administered. Yet there are those that say the Treaty of Hidalgo shows that California was a Territory negotiated and paid for by the United States.<br /><br />Wait a minute, if California was required to give the United States her land that would no longer be California but a Territory of the United States, then you can nix the old TREATY OF HIDALGO right in the rear.<br /><br />The thing to remember is Fremont and Montgomery blew it when Fremont offers to help the Bear Flag Revolt on his own, never giving notice to the Founders of the New Republic that he was there at the order of the President of the United States to secure the lands of Alta California from the Mexicans. Had Fremont instructed the Founders that He (Fremont) would command his men in the name of the United States then Alta California would have been liberated by the United States, ergo Alta California would have been a Territory of the United States and recognized such in the Treaty of Gudalupe Hidalgo. Fremont's error lies in this fact, in the real world of law it is a fatal error that denied the United States Government from just dividingj up California at its will.<br /><br />Had not Montgomery accepted the Standard of the New Republic (think: BEAR FLAG) and not placed it aboard the Portsmouth, then the United States would have denied the existence of the Republic. Two fatal errors on the part of the United States secret mission to Alta California.<br /><br />Ernie, I did not mean to hijack your post and will tell you why. WHY? Because I was raised by a man who had been born and raised in Salt Lake City when Utah was still a Territory. I can remember back in '58 when Alaska became a State and one of his friends asked him if he could remember the day Utah became a State. He did remember and told of of how his father took him to the Territorial Capital Building on that day and watched them lower the Flag of the United States of America and hoist the new Flag of the State of Utah, he could not remember all of the speeches but did remember with glee all of the festivities going on around the Temple on Temple Street and how he raced his friends around Temple Street in joy and celebration. He could remember his father telling him that he was no longer a Citizen of the United States but a Citizen of the State of Utah one of the Several States of the United States of America. He related on how this did not make any sense to him at 7 years of age but as he grew older he understood what his father had said that day in 1896 of his Citizenship.. I had a hard time with it also at the age of 8, but in time I also began to understand why it was so important to him to explain to us that day what was in his heart as a Citizen.. No his family was not Mormon, but all through his life his Mormon Friends were many and true as are mine.. So your investigation to California history of the Mormons and their contributions to settlement of the West is REALLY BIG. That man would often refer to his native Utah as one of Californias' Daughter States.<br /><br />Thank you for letting me chew your ear off..Best regards from Jon Huettl a son of California.<br /><br />ps..That wonderful mans name was Roger W. Jessup and at one time he owned a Cattle Ranch on the Eel.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08895282315650614773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-20659408886602744692010-06-17T14:53:31.543-07:002010-06-17T14:53:31.543-07:00Californo:
The cession that the treaty facilitate...<b>Californo:</b><br /><br />The cession that the treaty facilitated included parts of the modern-day U.S. states of Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico and Wyoming, as well as the whole of California, Nevada, Utah, and, depending on one's point of view, Texas. The remaining parts of what are today the states of Arizona and New Mexico were later peacefully ceded under the 1853 Gadsden Purchase, in which the U.S. paid an additional US$10 million (equivalent to $260 million today).Ernie Branscombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06391160783604462511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-3372470890924126462010-06-17T14:48:44.933-07:002010-06-17T14:48:44.933-07:00More required reading
The treaty of guadalupe de h...More required reading<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Guadalupe_Hidalgo" rel="nofollow">The treaty of guadalupe de hidalgo</a><br /><br /><br />EErnie Branscombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06391160783604462511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-5570964353217975222010-06-17T14:23:34.739-07:002010-06-17T14:23:34.739-07:00You are what I call "Old Crow" Ernie.
O...You are what I call "Old Crow" Ernie.<br /><br />OregonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-78167271591245934892010-06-17T14:16:16.466-07:002010-06-17T14:16:16.466-07:00Jon, You are right. Thank you for writing. I hope ...Jon, You are right. Thank you for writing. I hope that you don’t have to eat crow. The “Bran” in Branscomb is Welsh for “crow”. and I can assure you that I’m NOT tasty.Ernie Branscombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06391160783604462511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-7241835879279016582010-06-17T13:53:19.028-07:002010-06-17T13:53:19.028-07:00Amazes me that people seem to forget that when Alt...Amazes me that people seem to forget that when Alta California declared Independence from Mexico, that the new Republic of California was a whole lot larger than when the Republic was admitted as a Several State of the United States of America on September 9, 1850.<br /><br />After June 14th 1846 when the Mormons crossed the Colorado Rockies they were in the New Republic of California. When the first Mormon Scouts busted through the Unita Mountains, they were In the New Republic of California. When the Mormons Settled up and down the mighty Colorado, they did so in the Republic of California (formerly known as Territorio de Alta California by the Republic of Mexico).<br /><br />Yah, someone out there is going to yak about the Treaty of Guadalupe de Hidalgo and how I'am so vary wrong.<br /><br />Well go ahead, someone out there might prove me wrong as to the size of the New Republic of <br />California on June 14th 1846. I will even shoot the crow, dress it, cook it and relish every bite. When I'am wrong I own up to it. (Word if Caution, My Nez Perce friends still refer to me as Raven Killer and if you eat at my fire you just might end up eating one of those Ravens,I mean crows.)<br /><br />Ernie, the history of our Great Republic (California) is larger than we think.<br /><br />Jon Huettl, a naive of California.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08895282315650614773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-924013241079711992.post-27793865907978475772010-06-17T10:32:12.788-07:002010-06-17T10:32:12.788-07:00Joseph Smith was a PT Barnum-like huckster -- a c...Joseph Smith was a PT Barnum-like huckster -- a colorful salsesman who founded a carnavalesque religion.<br /><br />Perhaps Mormons do "believe in everything," but I'd say they'll believe in anything.Joel Mielkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087883565896070720noreply@blogger.com