Monday, June 14, 2010

We are all the same.

Right in the middle of posting this post, the e-world shut down and locked everything up. The post that showed up was not what I was trying to put up. So, not only was I not able to post what I wanted, I had to start over again. Try TWO:

Geronimo
Born:  Goyahkla, Goyaałé: "one who yawns".
June 16, 1829

Gila River, New Mexico (modern-day)
Died February 17, 1909 (aged 79)
Fort Sill, Oklahoma
Occupation: Medicine man
Known for: A famous Apache warrior



Here's something for everybody to ponder while I'm working on a post that I find absolutly mind bogling. I was doing some research on Indians and religion when I came aross this statement about Geronimo. My first thought was of the Kelseys,  of "Kelseyville" fame, and framers of the state of California, who they say would shoot an Indian just to watch him jump.

Geronimo: "He was born there [ southern Arizona ] in 1829, and grew up in a tribe of proud, fierce Apaches who made their living farming, hunting and raiding the Mexicans who had tried to enslave them. In 1851 Mexican soldiers murdered Geronimo's mother, wife and three children, and for the rest of his life he eagerly killed Mexicans without quam or quarter. When Americans began migrating into Apache territory, Geronimo fought them too, raiding mining camps and mule trains, stealing horses and cattle and guns, then fleeing to hidden camps in remote mountains."

I've often wondered how much of the early white settlers hatred of the Indian people was an extention of their traumatic trip throught Indian territory into California. Hatred seems to be a characteristic of all people that have suffered trauma at the hands of another. It seems to make no difference who was right or who was wrong.

22 comments:

suzy blah blah said...

We are all the same

exactly, and that's why you should never imagine yourself not to be otherwise then than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

Ernie Branscomb said...

Suzy's back! Welcome back Suzy.

Joe Blow said...

The wrong is in what motivates those that CAUSE the suffering and trauma. Ferret that out and you can eliminate the hatred.

If you can't figure out what I'm talking about Ernie, as Suzy she knows.

J2Bad said...

I think I agree with Joe Blow on this. You're missing something crucial by denying that there's a real distinction between the encroachers and the encroached. The literature from the 19th century is almost entirely one-sided, but we should be able to see that there were two sides, even if one of those sides was never given much voice in the historical record.

Ernie Branscomb said...

First, I don’t want to put words in Suzy’s mouth, but she seems to have gotten it right.

Joe Blow and J2bad seem to have missed the salient points: “We are all the same”, and, “Hatred seems to be a characteristic of all people that have suffered trauma at the hands of another. It seems to make no difference who was right or who was wrong“

It wasn’t about who was the encroached and who was the encroacher.

Robin Shelley said...

Just curious, Suz... did you take Joe up on the offer of the boots? (-:

Ernie Branscomb said...

As coincidence would have it, Wednesday June 16th is Geronimo's birthday!

Anonymous said...

Hey Ernie,
Since you brought up Geronimo's name, we were wondering why the parachute jumpers called his name when jumping. So, I looked it up. Seems the first jumpers watched an old movie in which the actor portraying Geronimo, jumped and hollered his name. The jumpers copied the actor to prove their bravery. Now it is just pop culture to holler the name at any jump-off.
I'm off to the Black Sheep Gathering this morning. No, that isn't my family reunion, as I'm sure you know. That would be the "Crummey Family Reunion" which occurs next month. I know that family reunions can be a lot of fun, but my mom's maiden name was Crummey.

Anonymous said...

I find it interesting that anybody knew what date Geronimo was born on.

Oregon

Anonymous said...

For the times,he lived to a "ripe" old age also!

J2Bad said...

I understood what you were saying; I just found it troubling. It's fine to say that people are all the same, but when you put it in the context of a historical wrong like the ethnic cleansing of entire populations, your humanism starts to smell funny.

Aside from saying we're all the same, you're offering a defense of people who shot Indians for the fun of it, saying that they only did it because of the trauma that they, in turn, suffered at the hands of the indians. Even steven.

Except most of the people who ended up settling this area in the 19th century came by ship, through Panama or Nicaragua. No real Indian trauma there. And most of those who did come overland didn't suffer from Indian attacks along the way. And none of the people living in the cities of the East Coast or in the Mid West would have had any direct experience with Indians at all, but they supported the national policy of "Indian removal" just as strongly as anyone else.

It wasn't trauma. It was racism. And the Indians defending themselves weren't motivated by the same thing. Those people were suffering trauma of a sort that white settlers were not. We might be all the same at the biological and psychological level, but you have to squint pretty hard at 19th century to come away singing kumbaya like that.

So, Ernie - why is it so hard for you to admit that it was racism that prompted all of those white people to hate all of those Indians? Why do keep trying so hard to defend what those people did? You've seen racism, right? Is it so hard to believe in?

suzy blah blah said...

... she seems to have gotten it right. Joe Blow and J2bad seem to have missed the salient points

exactly, and the moral is: "She opens her mouth modestly and in wisdom, and the law of kindness is on her tongue, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things, he deceives himself with the guile he speaks and is vain." (Proverbs 21:18).

Ernie Branscomb said...

J2bad
Would it make you happier if I said that "We are all the same, and that we can all see that people engaged in racism?".

If we can never see beyond racism, and question where it comes from, how will we ever be able to eliminate it. We continue to only see that people are "racists". We need to become race blind, and look for the root causes, or we will never get beyond it.

We need to look for the history, and realize that many people simply want to be bitter about what happened to one another, instead of WHY.

I'm concerned about the why. You would probably be surprised to find the many of the overland migrants brought extra cattle with them to pay, or bribe, the Indian people for safe passage. Most people that came to California did not want a confrontation with the Indians.

We are the very same genetic stock, today, as the people that came to California were. We have the same blood in our veins and we are very much the SAME people that they were. We have chosen not to be racists today. To criticize what the people did to one another in the nineteenth century is it’s own form of racism. But, you don’t see that. Why?

J2Bad said...

To criticize what the people did to one another in the nineteenth century is it’s own form of racism. But, you don’t see that. Why?

Because it's not. The distance of history allows us to see things without all of the cultural clutter that so often confuses people. Back in the 19th century, Southerners largely thought that slavery was scientifically and doctrinally justifiable. Today, we would say they were wrong. That's not racism - it's clarity.

We need to look for the history, and realize that many people simply want to be bitter about what happened to one another, instead of WHY.

I don't think that's true. Sounds like a straw man you're beating up on defensively.

And no, I'm not surprised by your historical details. I'll admit, though, you frequently surprise me.

Anonymous said...

Ernie you have always been a shit-headed old bastard. This posting now makes me feel sorry for you. After all these years on Earth you're still trying to defend murderers, rapists, and thieves. That's the legacy of your forefathers. That's the blood running through your veins. So now we know why you're such a piece of human filth Branscomb. Your name adorns poles on the side of the road. Your name is written on maps. Your name is also associated with murderers, rapists, and thieves. Yes Ernie. Don't deny it. You son of a bitch. I curse you Ernie Branscomb, all to hell and back. You go to hell Ernie Branscum.

Ernie Branscomb said...

Anon
If you think, for even a second, that I "defend murderers, rapists, and thieves." you just plain don't pay attention. Your attitude is what perpetuates hate AND racism.

Anonymous said...

You keep on clinging to your "white man's burden" mentality Ernie. It will suit you well in the "retirement community" you soon will be imprisoned in. Leave this world with some dignity Ernie. Admit you don't know shit. Admit you have been wrong. Admit you are the descendant of a lineage long bereft of morality. If you do not, you are surely bound for hell.

Ernie Branscomb said...

Okay, I don’t know shit, I’ve been wrong, I’m from a long line bereft of morality, (we all are) Who are you, God?

J2Bad said...

WTF, Anonymous? Exercise a little proportionality, will ya?

My complaint was with the "right or wrong" comment of the original post, because I felt that it masks the causal agency in the Indians vs. White Settlers conflict, and given the legacies of inequality, that seemed one sided to me in the way that Indian-Settler histories have often been one-sided in the past. But it's a judgement call on a historical interpretation. Hair splitting.

Ernie didn't actually kill any of those Indians.

Anonymous said...

Anonomous: I can not speak filthy enough to tell you what I think of your disgusting post to Ernie. You write so full of hatred. What is your problem, huh? What kind of a person would attack someone so viciously and not sign their name? And, I hate to correct you, but Ernie's family were not a batch of Indian killers, rapists & murderers. The person he is named for was the founder of Branscomb, which was not a battle ground. That was in the 1880s, much after the Indian/settler saga. Maybe you should get your history straight! I hope you feel much better after getting this idiotic bullshit off your chest.

Cousin

Anonymous said...

Oregon: why didn't you tell me that Geronimo and I share the same birthday?

Cousin

Anonymous said...

Well Penny, I know your birthday is on the 16th but I haven't heard from anybody telling me how they know for sure Geronimo was born on the 16th. Just cuz it's written somewhere in the history books makes me think that date for Geronimo's birthday was just pulled out of a hat.

Oregon