Columbus set foot in the “New World” on this day in 1492. That is a historical fact. No matter how you feel about the event, it is unchangeable. It was only a matter of time that the eastern hemisphere would find the western hemisphere. Only a fool could not see that inevitability. Sadly, no matter who set foot in the new world, the events would have been much the same. Many thousands of people would have died from disease. I often wonder how the new world might have been different if it had been discovered by a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Pagan. It gets to be a very complicated exercise. The only thing that I'm absolutely sure of, is that the two worlds would have inevitably found each other. Look at the technology that we have today, much of it would have happened independent of finding any new lands, but can you imagine them not finding America before today? Columbus found America, and to protest that fact, just seems ridiculous. Yet many do.
Columbus discovered the new world by sailing a fleet of three small ships, smaller than most modern fishing boats. Columbus' ships were hardly even seaworthy by today's standards. Yet he sailed them across the Atlantic ocean, and was able to make the return trip. If his fleet of ships had sunk, who knows who would have discovered the new world. His ships were the Nina the Pinta and the Santa Maria.
Columbus Day was originally celebrated on October 12th, now in the United States it is celebrated on the second Monday in October. We do that so we can take the day off as a paid holiday, thereby proving that celebrating the holiday is more important than the honoring the man. Many of the foods that the world likes came from America. You probably already know most of the foods that came from the new world, but some surprised me. The items listed are links, you can click on then for more information.
Pre-Columbian Distribution of Native Organisms with Close Ties to Humans.
New World to Old World.
Domesticated Animals:
alpaca guinea pig llama turkey
Domesticated Plants: coca cocoa chili pepper maize (corn) manioc (cassava, yuca) peanut pecan pineapple potato pumpkin quinoa rubber squash sunflower sweet potato tobacco tomato vanilla
Diseases: syphilis
Old World to New World.
Domesticated Animals:
bee cat camel chicken cow goat goose horse rabbit (domestic) pig rock pigeon sheep silkworm water buffalo
Domesticated plants:
almond apple apricot artichoke asparagus banana barley beet black pepper cabbage cantaloupe carrot coffee citrus (orange, lemon, etc.) cucumber eggplant flax garlic hemp kiwifruit kola nut lettuce mango millet oat okra olive onion opium peach pea pear pistachio radish rhubarb rice rye soybean sugarcane taro tea turnip wheat walnut watermelon amaranth avocado bean bell pepper blueberry cashew chia chicle chirimoya huckleberry papaya
Infectious diseases:
bubonic plague chicken pox cholera influenza leprosy malaria measles scarlet fever smallpox typhoid typhus yellow fever yaws
It's strange, but I always thought that Syphilis was an Old World disease. I wonder what the old world used for a venereal disease before finding America?
From Wikipedia:
"Three theories on the origin of syphilis have been proposed. It is generally agreed upon by historians and anthropologists that syphilis was present among the indigenous peoples of the Americas before Europeans traveled to and from the Americas. However, whether strains of syphilis were present in the entire world for millennia, or if the disease was confined to the Americas in the pre-Columbus era, is debated".
Research links:
Old world foods
New World Crops
Columbian Exchange
Posts
65 comments:
No one protests that Columbus discovered America (from the European viewpoint of discovery). That's a straw man argument you just foisted.
They protest celebrating that discovery. Columbus was a complete arsehole. Look him up.
I like to say that Chris Columbus was the very first winner of the America's Cup.
If you think about it, it was a giant boat race, and somebody was going to "discover" this side of the world
Anon
Compared to Pizarro, Columbus was a saint. “Nice guys” weren't held in very high regard back then. Look up anybody of any significance.
You nailed it Boy.
I often wonder how much longer it would have taken to discover The New World if Columbus had failed. Did you notice how much larger the Spanish ships got, right after they discovered that there was loot it the New World, and the natives were easily defeated?
My favorite Chris quote, as reported to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella:
"They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."
Christopher Columbus's bridging the Old World to the New World hides a curious spiritual meaning in his name: "Light bearer of Christ the Dove". It was inevitable that whatever continent got the technology and will-power together to seek foreign lands for exploitation did so. It is the human pattern after all. Of course most all of those receiving these venturesome over-achievers failed to see anything good come out of the meeting of Old World with New. The meeting was brutal and only slowly changed through the centuries by force of public outcry to resemble anything close to "civilized" behavior. Still, when I look at the history of the U.S.A. it amazes me that not more bloody violence has taken place here because this is the place where hundreds of differing ethnic groups are all trying their best to "get along" together. It could have been much much worse, e.g look at all the ethnic cleansing genocide going on still in our 21st century world. That's not to give a pass on European-Americans treatment of Native Americans but to remind us that America still is a shining light of interracial, inter-ethnic cooperation compared to mos societies in the world.
Oh, btw, those little boats of Columbus? I was on the replica of the Nina when it docked at harbor in Eureka. The boat was incredibly sturdily made. Everything made much thicker than what you see in boats today. But it was an amazing feat of courage for so many men to cram themselves onto these relatively tiny boats and cross the great ocean with them.
Columbus was a latecomer. Whites have the weirdest myths that they cling to.
Yes Steve. Bravery verging on insanity.
I think that the celebration should focus on the many good things that came out of the clash of the two worlds. One good point would be the food and nutrition. I would like and honest opinion from an indigenous person today; would the Indian people be better-off TODAY if Columbus had never found America?
I know that it was a tough slog, but we have some real advantages today. I don’t know if Indian people are still being treated poorly or not. I think that you would have to be Indian to know for sure. I think that when we are being treated poorly, we look for reasons. Often, when I didn’t get something that I though I deserved, like a bid on a job, I would wonder why I didn’t get it. And, I would look for the differences in myself. If I was a minority, I’m sure that I would have thought that had to be a factor. As I was, I just assumed that they had a favorite contractor that they wanted to have the job. It still sucked, but I couldn’t really blame it on anything.
"Columbus was a latecomer"
Yeah, but he brought the best diseases!
There you go again, Ernie. Taking the general BS propaganda for legitimate history. There are records scratched in rocks all over America and Canada by European people traveling and living on this continent many hundreds of years before 1492. As well as evidence of your Muslim friends from Phoenicia and if memory serves Roman and North African in Central America and Mexico.
The difference was the people, with Columbus history proves that the Spanish were degenerate butchers. No thanks to their masters, the Catholic Church.
Joe,
Next you're going to be telling me that Santa Claus is not real.
Certainly anyone with and open mind knows that America has been "discovered" many times.
Maybe I should have made a footnote that said; “His discovery made a significant impact.” I think that you will have to agree with me there.
But, I disagree with Joe that "the Spanish were degenerate butchers."
SOME spanish were degenerate butchers. The others were much like you and I, simple people trying to survive. Most leaders have a touch of insanity. Look at the leaders of the world today. Who among them would you say was sane?
Controversial study suggests that he took a strain of the yaws from the New World back to the Old World where it became the sexually transmitted syphilis, deadly in those days.
Happy Syphilis Day! Thanks a bunch Cristoforo Colombo!
Hey Ernie...Did the Asbills (Kelsey party) "discover" Round Valley? Are Native Americans human beings? Who benefitted from the "discovery"? Everyone? I rather think not. As for Columbus, the Caribe Indians of Cuba, Santo Domingo and Puerto Rico were utterly and completely destroyed. Wiped out. Pizarro was a mean SOB but the Incas survived. Even today with all our technical wonderfulness and compassion, many Indian reservations are by far the poorest communities in the US. Columbus Day is simply a celebration of Italian-American immigration and community and that doesn't bother me a bit. What does seem crude is the "in your face, we won" attitude that crops up every year in response to Native American outrage at how they have been treated by their "Enlightened" conquerors. I think the elementary school view of Columbus today is a good deal less fawning than back when we were in 5th grade. Thank God.
Ern, you look like Christopher Columbus!
Ben
"Did the Asbills (Kelsey party) "discover" Round Valley?"
Absolutely not, but just like Columbus, they were the first to make a big fuss.
"Are Native Americans human beings?"
Thank-you for asking that. In my estimation they are far more "human" than the "Christians" than discovered them. They liked to tell stories that justified the things around them, that is a very human trait. Much like us on this blog.
"Who benefitted from the "discovery"?
Very simply, posterity did. Individuals didn't
"everyone?"
Only those that survived. So, we have come full circle and we have came back to my most persistent theory about the discovery and settling of America. It was about survival for most of us. It was about unbelievable greed and hate for a handful of thugs. I see those thugs in history, and I see them today. Why didn't we do something about them in “History”, and why don't we do something about them “today”. It must have something to do with survival, or that “quiet desperation” that Thoreau talked about.
In between voyages, Columbus was stranded on Jamaica for a year, you don't suppose...he smoked the...nah.
Yeah! I know, it's a bummer when beliefs get in the way of fact.
Sane or insane? That's my point. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the sanity of the ruler, if the majority support that ruler the whole people are tarred with that same brush. It wasn't the rulers butchering the innocent indigenous population for profit. It was the people that supported those rulers. I'm not over in Iraq or Afghanistan either murdering innocent women and children, but my tax dollar pays for those men and women that are, regardless of whether I voted for President Bush or Obama. Remember, they are there because they want to be, if not they wouldn't be in the military.
I may not agree with what this country did to Iraq and its not-so-innocent population. I may be one of those poor sorry SOB's just trying to survive, but do you think that changes anything. I'm still an American, this is a Democracy and the majority speaks for me and the world doesn't make any distinctions. America, you and me included, supported, sustained and empowered everything that this country did and does to that population because they refused to remove or change their ruler or regime, sane or insane.
And don't try to tell me the poor weak people couldn't change anything because it was a brutal dictatorship. When “the people” want a different government, they get a different government one way or another.
Not doing something about the “thugs” because they threaten our survival, is the same situation I found myself in many times in my life dealing with thug bullies. Every time I was forced to decide if I was going to be a man or a mouse. Was I going to do business the thug bully way or cut an run? That's the test of character that faces all men and women today. The answer, is the difference that makes a great people for historical posterity or of a nation of brutal, degenerate butchers.
Joe
There isn't much that I can find to disagree with you on. Yet, here we are, both Americans, "Tarred with the same brush."
No matter how impassioned we become about history, it doesn’t change. For us to stand here in the present, and to judge, doesn’t change anything. To say that everybody was responsible, or had the power to change anything would be ridiculous. They were much like us today, they were just trying to survive.
In the last few years. We have seen Humboldt County try to take away Rural Property Rights. Forcing people to move to the urban areas.
Charles Hurwitz cut our Redwood forests at the rate of two-and-one-half times the sustained yield rate. Cutting the oldest and the best first, with little regard for the health of the forest or the streams. He cut-and-ran just like we predicted he would. He ruined our chances to have a viable Redwood lumber industry, and now we may never have one again due to his destruction.
Bernie Madoff stole Billions of dollars from wall street investors. He has so far refused to say where the money went.
We have thugs, and thieves, and greedy people today. Yet, you and I do little about it. In the future they will say that we should have stopped it, and they will again “tar us with the same brush”, and we will all be complicit in their eyes. That was “the test of character that faces all men and women today.”
when i went to england back in 85, several old chaps took exception to the ideas of ronald reagan. they just assumed because he was president, it was my responsibility that he was there. so i can see your point.
i can see ben's point too.
the only thing you can do is try to be a good example.
the thing about sweat lodges that most people miss, is that the indians used them for survival. before they went out hunting, they would do a sweat to get rid of the human smell so the animals wouldn't know they were there. that way they could sneak right up on the animal and kill it with their crude weapons from a short distance away. so it wasn't just a vision the indians were seeking in there, it was dinner too.
Ernie,
In one breath you tell me you (we) are not responsible for what's going on; no one has or had the power to change anything, then in the next breath you tell me that because we're too gutless to do anything about the thugs and bullies no one stands up to, history will tar us for the worthless, sub-standard degenerate, weak-kneed cowards we proved to be – even though we were powerless to do anything anyway.
By the way, no one is judging anything. History judges these people for what they irrefutably are. The fact is you do not know me, but I know something of you. Actually, I knew your parents more than you. So, you should speak for yourself when you judge me for having done nothing. Actually, you could say the same about Jesus Christ when he came into the same degenerate corrupt and brutal society. What did he do? Really? All he did was get himself executed for sedition. Some would have you think he courageously changed the world. To a better place like you talk about or would like to left for our children? I hardly think so.
To say that all we are doing is just trying to survive, when you basically agree with the current system, is a cop-out. When you refuse to accept the truth of what people are proven to be and do not call a spade for a spade because you are only trying to survive, you agree with them and what they are whether they be thug or saint. You can justify the right to just about every amoral activity in the book with the excuse of only “trying to survive.” That's the reasoning behind why this country violates the sanctity and sovereignty of other countries by extra-judicial executions, murder and assassinations. We won't mention the tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children butchered by cruise missiles, unmanned drones, carpet bombings, invasions and occupations all fabricated and justified on lies. That's a shame neither you nor I shall never outlive. But, I get your point. I guess we should be grateful that our ancestors survived as well as they did and that we should do as well.
There is a mathematical rule that says if you take the present and divide it by the past you will know the future. I think that is something you can understand.
Joe
I'm not trying to argue with you. I know from your comments that you are a man of character, and have the strength of your convictions. When it seems that I am changing my story, it's simply not the case. I was trying to point out that we are much the same as our ancestors. I was juxtaposing our ancestors to now, and the irony of us judging them when we are not any better. I still say, we are all just trying to survive. Some retain more character while doing that than others, but human nature remains much the same.
Spy
Indian reservations are their own nation. They are not subject to building codes other than their own. Indians cannot be sued for bad dept. It is very nervous work working on reservation land. If you don't do a good job they won't pay you... simple as that. I always found the Indian peple to be more fair than the average general contractor, so I never had a problem.
when chris colombus showed up there were 6 million native americans living in the united states according to conservative estimates. since there was only 250,000 in 1900 left, maybe we should make amends for killing them all and give them back their land. make it the reservation of the united states and then we could build whatever we want and have casinos on every corner.
according to our founding fathers who were all the radical liberals of their time who were willing to die to have the same freedom the native americans had when they came here, much of the declaration of independance and the formation of our government was based on the iroquois confederacy which had already been in existence for 400 years.
on july 4, 1744, chief canassatego of the iroquois spoke at an alliance with colonists against the french about the five nations. he held up one arrow which he easily broke in two. he then wrapped 12 arrows together, one for each of the colonies represented at the meeting, not even the stongest man in the room could break them. the great seal of the united states shows an eagle with 13 arrows in its claws.
many of the founding fathers lost their lives or their fortunes.
none of the founding fathers families are wealthy today. but many of the conservative, pro tory, pro british of the time are still some of the wealthiest families in the united states. so maybe the joke is on us. we are the new indigineous.
--held up one arrow which he easily broke in two.
He was illustrating that "oneness" sucks.
E Pluribus Tredecim!
Ernie,
I took some time to think about our conversation and try to reply responsibly. I understand what you say probably better than you think – my wife believes and talks much as you.
The question is, how do we effect positive change and still survive? What I've learned is that the only “thing” I can directly change is myself. And then, I cannot change my subconscious self directly. It's kind of like my wife of over 40 years, I can talk until I'm blue in the face for decades and she still doesn't understand what I say, even though she understand "me" better than I do myself, sometimes. But then, like you and I, I think we're making progress.
People are judged by acting in harmony upon what they think and mostly by what they believe. If they act upon a lie, they become liars. The big problem for most people is accepting that “judgment” when it manifests. Specially when it's someone or something we care a great deal about. To a large extent that is the problem the American people struggle with today; accepting the fact that the system they believe in is “Humpty-Dumpty” broken. They keep acting like it's fixable or not broken at all. Consequently, they can't come to terms with reality so they can produce a workable solution – for themselves or anyone else.
So, what's it going to take to change that same “human nature” that condemns us all?
We have had some exceptionally astute comments here lately. Spyrock really nailed it. “We are the new indigenous” people.
Joe nailed it with; “accepting the fact that the system they believe in is “Humpty-Dumpty” broken. They keep acting like it's fixable or not broken at all. Consequently, they can't come to terms with reality so they can produce a workable solution – for themselves or anyone else.”
Evelyn said “E Pluribus Tredecim!” Which means; “Out of one, thirteen” which is a reference to the thirteen original states that spy rock mentioned. They banded together to bring the government of the Union to American shores by revolting against Great Briton.
In the comic strip “Pogo”, Pogo announced “I have discovered the enemy, It’s us”. We are under the complete control of the wealthy of the world. We allow it out of the frustration of not being able to do anything about it. We do what we can, and we try to pay attention to what’s happening in our government, but as usual, we are to busy trying to survive to pay much close attention. Consequentially, we have become our own worst enemy. Our inaction brings about our defeat.
Sometimes I feel just like a sheep, and I can feel the shears of my government coming to fleece me. Again… It must be something like the Indigenous people of California felt when the Franciscans came to “save them.”
Ernie,
Go take a look at this, something I saw this morning. Made the hair stand up on the back of my neck.
As Foreclosures Hit All-Time High, Wall Street on Pace to Hand Out Record $140B in Employee Bonuses, an interview by William Black
I seems were more like the "indiginous peoples" than we knew.
Unlike the indigenous, there are not men waiting for you to wake up to shoot you dead, or chase you through the hills, taking your surviving children and wives for slaves, chattel, or wives... destroy your food supply and culture, force you into reservations and destitution; or introduce alchohol, and unknown diseases, killing off %90 of your people.
Genocide is one thing.
Your analogies have serious limitations.
I guess the "Anonymous" blogger is talking to me. If so, I ask where have you been the last 10 years?
Classic example of refusing to accept reality. Everything that person says is happening right now, one way or another. Remember, what goes around comes around.
exactly mr. blow. where has this anon dude been for the last 10 or more years. there were no free countries in europe. every country had a king and everyone was the king's chattel or servants, slaves, etc. the french revolution was inspired by the discovery of the new world and the freedom that the indians enjoyed. in america, the king has been replaced by the corporation. where i work they just fired the quality control guy because he told the usda that they ignored his suggestions because it slowed down production.
its the same greedy people dude that wanted the indians land that had them all killed. they killed homesteaders too dude. wake up homey. for one second, try to forgive what happened 150 years ago and really look at the present moment. we are freedom. what's left of it. get on the same page dude.
yeh, i guess that would be like susie blah, rather than susie blah blah. lucky you. your indian name. susie twoblahs.
Wow!!! really? my very own "indian name"! Dude, that is sooooo cewl, thnx soooooo much 4 the initiation ceremony... i am highly honored! and i can hardly wait to travel on a "vision quest" and go in the "teepee" for a "sweat bath" and to play the "tomtom" and smoke the "great spirit" in a "peacepipe" as a prayer to the "Coyote". i may even go to the center of the world, which according to the wise indian medicine man "Black Elk", is Harney Peak S. Dakota LOL!
hanna yo,
siouxie
"Freedom" this guys says? Proof positive, again. Thanks Ernie for providing the format, not that I really need it.
You didn't answer my question, which isn't unusual either: "The question is, how do we effect positive change and still survive?"
ugh!
"The question is, how do we effect positive change and still survive?"
Well sadly Joe, we don’t. That was my point, our lives are about survival. When we need to effect change badly enough, we choose sacrificial lambs and cannon fodder and engage in civil war. Some of us die for the betterment of the ones that survive. It is the age old question about war. When are we better off in the long run. Political leaders always skirt the edge of how much people will tolerate without revolting.
Saddam Husain said, after he was captured, that the reason that he wanted to perpetuate the myth that he had Weapons of Mass Destruction was because he feared Iran would invade Iraq if they knew he was defenseless. He didn’t think the United States would have the courage to test him. He was wrong. Today things would be different. When you play poker, you have to outsmart the whole table to win. Saddam was a bad Gambler.
I think that we all feel the frustration that our government doesn’t really represent us anymore. But, we all have a different focus on our dissatisfaction. My only hope is that the common man can have a good enough job to support his family, and live a reasonably comfortable life. I think that we should all row our own boats and take care of ourselves, but our boats are going to need enough money in them to buy the things we need. Too many of us are willing to let somebody else take care of us. That takes the control of our lives away from us.
We always seem to end up in that state of quiet frustration that doesn’t extend far beyond our circle of close friends. And we continue to try to survive as best we can. While the smarter and greedier people go about trying to figure out how to control us and take the fleece that we’ve tried so hard to grow.
Ernie,
You ever fight a thug bully?
Or, you ever have your family threatened by a thug bully?
Ernie,
Is that your final comment on this thread?
Joe Blow,
Just send an arrow to the bully thugs lungs, anonymously.
In junior high school I had a locker next to a "greaser", a term for black leather jacketed "urban gentry" who over pomaded their hair.
By accident I stepped on his well polished shoe, scuffing it. He grabbed me by the lapels of my handmade sweater (I think it was the 100 flags of the world sweater that my mother knitted for her nerdson)and I grabbed him by his leather jacket lapels. Bark, bark, incident over.
Another time on a bus I had to stand up to his taunts, successfully. In my senior year of high school I sat next to him in typing class and he taught me to tap out the drum beat to the song "Wipeout" with my feet.
This bully was befriendable over time. The ones with guns that traumatized Joe B, or the ones that plague Indie's (and others) neighborhoods probably weren't.
It is an excellent question Joe.
As times get tougher and people rougher in response to the decay of American "civilization"...
how will we deal with the guntotin' thugs?
Joe
No, we can go on as long as someone wants to comment.
I know that you were threatened by bully thugs and fought the fight, because you mentioned it once before. I thought by making the comment about war would answer your question, but if you want to know if I have personally been threatened by bully thugs. Yes, I have. A lot more often when I was younger, but not so much now. I don't know if I have decided that there is a lot less worth fighting for, or whether I have become a better diplomat and can affect a better outcome.
I will say that I will try a little harder to get along with you, now that I know you a little better, because you seem to have some of the kind of Character that I admire. However, that doesn't mean that I will always agree with you. I think you are right about your wife, she knows you better than you do. Often women are better judges of character than men are. I will say that she must be a very patient woman.
I hope things are well with you.
Ernie
I might add that I strongly believe that a poke in the nose will change a persons mind faster than anything else will. And yes, I've been both sides of the poke in the nose. So, I speak from experience!
Ernie,
When my brother and I were growing up our father, a WW Two combat veteran we found out in later life, was highly trained and lethal. Well, he always told that if there was to be a fight, hit the other person right on the nose and that will end the fight before it starts. So, that is what we did, then. Later when we found out about his abilities, we asked him why he never trained us? His answer was, because a punch in the nose did the job, didn't it?
Well Ernie, in that regard, in my whole life I never “physically” got punched in the nose. In a lifetime of working in the woods as a logger I had occasion to be confronted with combat-hardened guys, much bigger and stronger than me, that liked to hurt people and had a reputation for doing so. In all those years not a single one of those thug bullies ever put a hand on me. In other words I never had to employ my fathers solution. I might mention, that in all those years I never packed a weapon either. What made the difference? What stopped them?
It appears from your reply that you learned that solution. When I asked you the question, "The question is, how do we effect positive change and still survive?" You said, “Well sadly Joe, we don’t.” What we're talking about here is one and the same, thug bullies. The solution is the same! You just haven't made the connection.
Frankly, I am in accord with what you say the situation is that we face. There was a reason why none of those thugs put their hands on me. I just didn't cooperate with them and what they wanted. Which is decidedly a better solution than war! It's what I call the Third Option.
I guess it's all about getting our ducks in order. I think the most difficult thing for any human to do is accept the truth for what it shows itself to be. We all love this country and are proud to be Americans. I've lived and worked in another country and I know what it means to “BE” American. You know yourself that you cannot fix anything until you accept the fact that it is broken. American's and the World (most of it anyway) got this illusion they hang on to in the form of “hope” embodied in Barack Obama. Once that betrayal consummates we're all going to see just how broken our source of how the “common man can have a good enough job to support his family, and live a reasonably comfortable life.”
I'm seeing and I believe you are too, that we have a whole lot more in common than we thought we did, which is, I'll admit, a bit of a surprise for me.
in early 1950, paul nitze advised president truman that it would be necessary to lower rather than raise civilian standards of living in order to produce arms. this blue print for a cold war economy was titled nsc-68. since 1950, the united states has spent 15 trillion on the military-industrial complex. an amount of money greater than the value of all the factories, machinery, roads, bridges, water and sewer systems, airports, railroads, power plants, office buildings, shopping center, schools, hospitals, hotels, and houses in the the country added together. talk about a thug bully. thats
$15,000,000,000,000 for you common mans out there. no wondas weze po. foo.
I had a reason for asking you if you had ever fought a bully. I should have asked if you had ever “successfully defended” yourself from a bully or bullies. Which goes right to the heart of my question about "...how do we effect positive change and still survive?" Obviously, the discussion is equating the government to a thug bully, but then America conducts itself in the World the same way. Your response was, “Well sadly Joe, we don’t. That was my point, our lives are about survival. When we need to effect change badly enough, we choose sacrificial lambs and cannon fodder and engage in civil war.” I don't see anything you've said that changes that belief wherein you buy into the bully's legitimate right to exist. Which subsequently leaves our interaction with any “bully” predicated on “survival.”
That is always the way it is with bullies; they hold all the cards, they think or believe they are in total control and when you play their game with them, you lose – automatically. What are your choices, when in the long run it's fight and lose or submit and lose? It's the classic situation a woman finds herself in when being raped by threat of death. Does she fight and die or does she submit and maybe live? To answer that question you must define what the rapist or the bully is really after. So, “survival” on your terms may not really be an option when you consider what's really in jeopardy or lost.
You said Saddam was a bad gambler. That would make sense from someone that's bought into the bully's right to exist. The first mistake I've noticed bullies make is that they think their victim is stupid. And if you try to talk to them it only infuriates them. So, I don't know how your diplomatic skills manage that problem. Suppose Saddam wasn't stupid, but merely decided to change the rules knowing he had nothing to lose. Then consider how much paper money the US has printed and borrowed to finance that war on top of all the consequential printing to save the economy and what that has done to the value of the dollar (reserve) and you just might begin to get an idea as to what just might be really going on. The lives of a few thousand Arabs are a small price to pay to bring down the Western Alliance.
Of course, there's always the other side of the coin. My father used to always say, “You can't fight City Hall.” I learned later on in life that he never ever had any interest in “fighting City Hall.” He was in lock-step with them, supporting and backing them all the way. He just wanted everyone to think they were the problem, that he was powerless and had no say. That way he didn't have to take any responsibility or be accountable for why everything was going to hell in hand basket. And that comes back to why, if you are sincere about change and survival, you must first change the “way” you think and stop making excuses for a broken system in the hope that somehow you're going to survive.
Joe Blow, you never did say if you liked the arrow idea.
psst, Joe, if you tie two arrows together with string, metaphorically speaking, like for instance if you and Ernie got together and ... uh, LOL! Anyway then the two-as-one, ie the oneness of the two, might make a better impact on the third --the Bully in the well polished shoes.
but first, the 1st one needs to know that the third is another one and that the 3 is really two too becuz one and three is 4, the number of wholeness, and likewise 2 and 2 are four, and the fourth is the cornerstone, or the ONE, and one is one, and one is all there is... the Rasta's call it "unity" or "i and I" --ie when you fight city hall youre really just punching the mirror in the knows... but you don't wanna do that becuz it will only make it all that much harder to tell if there's egg on your face and then you'll never know what came first, the bully or Suzy. Which is something to think about...
But why?
So my advice is --give it a shot Joe, divided we stand and together we fall, remember Adam and Eve, and who nose, you may even get a bloody privileged parking spot, old chap, when you arrive.
suzy, I know Ernie well enough to know that Joe doesn't have a chance at a parking spot. Ern must feel quilty or he holds you in high regard, as I do. Please abuse that parking spot til Ernie squalls like a mashed cat. I wished I could be there to see it all.
Oregon
hey, Oregon. My cat Jose, likes to curl into a ball and get all quilty on the bed sometimes, i love him sooo much when he does that...
And if any idiot, like some of these losers that always seem to be hanging around Suzy's bed, should ever mash him --that fucking bully will get an arrow through the 3rd eye, tanto.
huggles,
s
eeeeep! i meant to say pronto LOL!
i have sort of a different take on this thug bully business. many of the local tbs went to my mom's school. she considered them her kids just like all of her kids. i got to know several of them very well when i was young because my mom was always driving them home from school or camp or wherever they got in trouble at. they were terrified of my mom because they allowed punishment in those days. these kids would actually run away from me fearing that my mom might think they were hurting me. of course, my mom was born in covelo and really was tough.
one of the kids who stayed out of trouble back then and with whom i used to play ditch with at the pta meetings joined the fire department and later became one of my bosses. he was married about 4 times, the first time to a lady from texas who was the older sister of the main man thug bully of his time in our area. now i'm really going to get vague but just say that the baby grew up to be a notorious thug bully in our area and after scaring everyone in our area, he moved up to where y'all live to hide out.
most of these tbs have died or are still in jail. but just like the old days, outlaws have always been attracted to your area.
the best thing you could do is to start minding your own business. stay out of their bars. i tell this same story to dove's son but he had to learn the hard way. the best thing for you to do is start being an example in your own life and quit judging people who couldn't help turning out like they did because their parents didn't set a good example.
i learned this from my fish. there is always a leader of the school and the other fish copy her or him. trying to deal with these adult children is a mistake.
my mom taught me to respect everyone no matter what. that's what kept people alive back in the george white days in covelo.
its really not crewl to demonize anyone. thats your contribution to this problem. the solution is to see the best in people, everyone. and your whole reality will get much better.
wow, susie twoblahs knows rastafarian mathematics.
crewl. i was just reading about how we went from squanto to tonto.
so susie twoblahs didn't make a mistake. that was a tantric tonto in her bed mashing her cat.
thus, she says tanto which is the tibetian word for tonto and she must be psychedic because how did she know i was reading about tonto and squanto.
crewl
yep, thats the bully's word for cool.. but we forgive Spyrock cuz i guess he musta probably got outa the wrong side of bed early in his life. Some kids have a rough childhood and the crewlty of a mother who hangs out wiht bullys can affect them all threwout their career, you gnow.
The old west was a rough place to be a kid. Kinda like Jamaica where they dont even celebrate halloween!!! but Suzy is working on changing all that by handing out condoms for trick or treat this year to that dredlocked kid that i hope will come knocking on my door again... (sigh)--it's gonna be a ggod "one".
And the way we do our tantra practices here, halloween lasts til thanksgiving
but on the other side of the bed, the write side, why just last night Suzy had the most wonderful full nine chakra tantrick experience.. and now, all i can think is "who was that masked man?"
Numsoose...Numsuz...hmmm.
oh oh, maybe our ruse isn't as clever as we thought, now theyre hot on our trail Kemosabi*. i may have to join a convent and hide out til things cewl down a little.
*Kemosabe is from an Alqonquin language, similar to the Ojibwe word Giimoozabbi. This word roughly means 'scout', 'spy' or even 'masked man'
one last huggle,
nun suz
I always thougt kemosabe meant "friend".
Oregon
Actually, "Kemosabe" is a Hungarian sauce served over marinated goats eyes. Is it served as an appetizer just before the main dish.
You could look it up!
According to Jim Jewell, the director of the Lone Ranger radio series in the mid 30', Kemosabi actually means 'spy' or scout, he actually got the word from a boys camp at Mullet Lake, in Michigan. ie spyrock's indian name is Kemosabi Rock. Totally cewl! or crewl, depending on your world view and stuff like that.
Hey, did you know that the indian's world view had no concept of past or future, they always lived totally in 'the now'! Hence 'been' or 'ben' translates to 'non-existant'. i wonder what 'Oregon' means in indian?
oxxo
ms tooby
i think susie twoblahs is on to something. The truth is that The Lone Ranger and The Green Hornet are in fact connected. It is a fact that Britt Reid has been established as being an descendant of The Lone Ranger (the exact relationship - great grandfather, uncle, sister-in-law - varies depending on the source) whose real name was John Reid. Makes sense since the whole setup for the Green Hornet is that he is a modern version of The Lone Ranger. Check it out. The Lone Ranger has an Indian sidekick named Tonto, The Green Hornet has a Chinese sidekick named Kato. Both are mysterious masked men who some believe to be outlaws but who are in fact champions for justice. The Lone Ranger's transportation was a horse named Silver, The Green Hornet's was a car with a horse name - Black Beauty. They even both sported classical music as their theme songs with each song becoming forever linked to their character (The William Tell Overture for The Lone Ranger and Flight Of The Bumble Bee for The Green Hornet). so trusty scout would be equivalent to someone who would be on top of a mountain looking for their enemies which is what my aunt ruth told me the indians who climbed spyrock where doing just that. according to this thread the algonquin were supposed to have originated from japan, hense the samurai/chinese connection and the japanese/chinese garden pond which i have. the algonquin were looking for the iroquois during the french and indian war so the algonquin live in canada. kato was bruce lee's name, the sidekick of the green hornet and its also the name of the kahto indians who lived near where my mendocino ancestors settled in the 1850's.
i actually used to listen to the long ranger on the radio and i had a record of them. i used to listen to the wild bill hickock and jingles show too. i loved andy devine.
but its great to be compared to the lone ranger, jay silverheels and bruce lee. so i'm proud to accept the name kimosabe and you can call me that anytime you want.
also, thanks for connecting two cultures that i find very interesting, the original native americans and the original asians with the word kimosabe.
Harry Jay Smith, a Canadian Mohawk, was playing lacrosse when comedian Joe E. Brown discovered him and encouraged his going into acting. Few remember "Tonto's" work with Bogart and Bacall.
used to listen to the long ranger on the radio
LOL! Suzy likes that name. After all, he wasn't alone, the indian was his faithful companion. But how long was he? Only Tonto knows ;)
didn't mean to get you excited. they called him the lone ranger because all the other rangers with him were killed and he was left for dead but came back to life. what worries me is that i found a mask like his on the floor by my bedroom dresser. so maybe i have a dream life i'm not aware of.
He lived because Tonto saved him.
Hard for redman to get credit.
The 1st episode:
"The canyon area is now deserted when, hours later, one of the rangers thought to be dead, regains conscious. It's Captain Dan Reids' brother, John. He slowly crawls out of the hot sun into a nearby cave that also contains a water hole. After taking a sip of water he lies back and, again, falls unconscious.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then a lone figure rides into the canyon area. It's an Indian and he soon discovers the bodies of the dead rangers. Looking around he walks to the cave and, to his surprise, finds the one ranger who has apparently survived the ambush. Looking closer, the Indian notices a medallion around the rangers neck. It's the same medallalion the Indian remembers giving to someone who had helped him when they were both boys. "You Kemo Sabe" the Indian tells the ranger. "Kemo Sabe?" the ranger asks. The Indian goes on to explain how the boy came to his rescue after renegade Indians had burned his camp and killed his family, leaving the young Indian alone to die. "Yes," the ranger remembers, "you're Tonto." "Yes, me Tonto" the Indian replies. "Now me help you" Tonto tells the ranger.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day after day, the Indian nurses the ranger back to health until the ranger is strong enough to sit up and talk. "Tonto, I've been doing a lot of thinking" the ranger says. "I'm going to devote my life to ridding the west of outlaws." "That good" Tonto replies. "But I'll need a disguise of some kind" the ranger tells Tonto. "I don't want anyone to know who I am." Tonto tells the ranger he will make him a mask from the vest of the rangers dead brother, Captain Dan Reid.
The ranger puts on the mask for the first time as Tonto says "you all alone now, you lone ranger." "Yes Tonto" the ranger says, "I am The Lone Ranger!" "
Tonto means 'wild one' in Potowatamie.
my 5G grandfather James, was at the time of the Revolutionary War taken prisoner and held for about twelve months on the Western Reserve in Ohio, and forty years later, when the Indian lands were put upon the market, he returned to that country, bought the land, and located on the same spot where he had been held as prisoner, and died there. He was a blacksmith, and made arms for Gen. Washington during the Rev- olutionary War. He was taken prisoner at the battle of Long Island, when seventeen years of age, and was given to the Ind- ians by the English, and carried out to the Western Reserve, in Western Ohio. He was liked and adopted by the chief, and was sent out hunting, and escaped after about a year's captivity, footing it back. In 1820, forty years later, he took a claim where the Indian wigwam was, and the spring out of which he formerly drank was on this claim. He died on it in 1843. The Indians who adopted him were the Algonquin because they were at war with the Iroquois Confederacy and the Americans. say it ain't so kemosabe.
Post a Comment